Comments on: Nokia, Symbian, Open Source http://www.thisismobility.com/blog/2008/06/30/nokia-symbian-open-source/ Ripping mobility from the clutches of telecom Wed, 10 Mar 2010 01:48:00 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7.1 hourly 1 By: gigi kent http://www.thisismobility.com/blog/2008/06/30/nokia-symbian-open-source/comment-page-1/#comment-595861 gigi kent Wed, 25 Nov 2009 22:46:20 +0000 http://www.thisismobility.com/blog/?p=566#comment-595861 Let me add this: having programmed for J2ME and Android, Windows and Linux C++, perl and tcl, and php, and then reading here and there bits of Symbian code, I have sworn I would never take on Symbian. IDE + emulator are cumbersome and full of bugs even to this day, APIs are so damn poorly documented, there is no such thing as write for S60 3rd, expect to the same behaviour on S60 3rd FP1, ease of working with all the tools is pure fiction - thanks God I found a way to put my GIF as application icon (via MBM) because googling firstly revealed the SVG madness. Not to mention all these "Golden partner" and such programs carefully planted so that key APIs and tools for making decent applications were hidden from you - however the marketplace (firstly Android, then iPhone, the snowball reached Nokia eventually) pushed Nokia to release one by one these APIs and tools (on device debugging for instance, CTelephony for instance) .. Symbian signing junk is yet another cash cow that took me about a whole day to figure out how to use (the online signing form would be very difficult to seek on the symbian.org domain again.. good thing I have bookmarked it). The damn UI would not draw a simple CEikLabel on a CAknForm unless I have overriden 3 (three) functions and made the UI framework consider my label as a 'custom control', The only way to put it on a form is to tell the framework that it is something like 'EEikSliderDerived'... outrageous. Oh, And you should not expect it to resize itself no matter how nice you ask for it. And many and many countless issues !!! ok I am loosing it already :) So, although I have sworn not to cut my desire to enjoy life (as programmer) here I stand, just another frustrated programmer between the other 4 millions, trying to make a buck. And no, I am not a fanatic. Active Objects are easy to understand and also helpful. I like them. I also like descriptors - but these are hard to understand at first. Traps are a complete proof of elitism / snobism / whatever. Why were they introduced ? because the RV compiler was that crappy ?? Bad influences... Oh and I have never got around to fully understanding how to use RFile in conjunction with stream objects ..oh wait, I am starting over again! Much more to wine about, enough for today. Enjoy your abld! Let me add this:

having programmed for J2ME and Android, Windows and Linux C++, perl and tcl, and php, and then reading here and there bits of Symbian code, I have sworn I would never take on Symbian. IDE + emulator are cumbersome and full of bugs even to this day, APIs are so damn poorly documented, there is no such thing as write for S60 3rd, expect to the same behaviour on S60 3rd FP1, ease of working with all the tools is pure fiction - thanks God I found a way to put my GIF as application icon (via MBM) because googling firstly revealed the SVG madness. Not to mention all these “Golden partner” and such programs carefully planted so that key APIs and tools for making decent applications were hidden from you - however the marketplace (firstly Android, then iPhone, the snowball reached Nokia eventually) pushed Nokia to release one by one these APIs and tools (on device debugging for instance, CTelephony for instance) .. Symbian signing junk is yet another cash cow that took me about a whole day to figure out how to use (the online signing form would be very difficult to seek on the symbian.org domain again.. good thing I have bookmarked it). The damn UI would not draw a simple CEikLabel on a CAknForm unless I have overriden 3 (three) functions and made the UI framework consider my label as a ‘custom control’, The only way to put it on a form is to tell the framework that it is something like ‘EEikSliderDerived’… outrageous. Oh, And you should not expect it to resize itself no matter how nice you ask for it. And many and many countless issues !!!

ok I am loosing it already :)

So, although I have sworn not to cut my desire to enjoy life (as programmer) here I stand, just another frustrated programmer between the other 4 millions, trying to make a buck.

And no, I am not a fanatic. Active Objects are easy to understand and also helpful. I like them. I also like descriptors - but these are hard to understand at first. Traps are a complete proof of elitism / snobism / whatever. Why were they introduced ? because the RV compiler was that crappy ?? Bad influences… Oh and I have never got around to fully understanding how to use RFile in conjunction with stream objects ..oh wait, I am starting over again!

Much more to wine about, enough for today. Enjoy your abld!

]]> By: matt flowers http://www.thisismobility.com/blog/2008/06/30/nokia-symbian-open-source/comment-page-1/#comment-463249 matt flowers Fri, 06 Feb 2009 17:35:55 +0000 http://www.thisismobility.com/blog/?p=566#comment-463249 I have been developing mobile software for the last 8 years and I would agree that developing for Symbian is hard. There is however an upside to this, that is, developing for a tough platform makes you a better developer. It also means that when you need to develop for other mobile platforms such as Windows Mobile or J2ME it suddenly seems so easy. I have been developing mobile software for the last 8 years and I would agree that developing for Symbian is hard. There is however an upside to this, that is, developing for a tough platform makes you a better developer. It also means that when you need to develop for other mobile platforms such as Windows Mobile or J2ME it suddenly seems so easy.

]]> By: Hetal http://www.thisismobility.com/blog/2008/06/30/nokia-symbian-open-source/comment-page-1/#comment-302286 Hetal Thu, 24 Jul 2008 01:27:29 +0000 http://www.thisismobility.com/blog/?p=566#comment-302286 Thanks for the response Mike, I certaintly don't deny what you are saying about recent developer interest but I do want to temper that with the facts and the ''global'' picture. In my experience, outside of the US there is still a lot of developer activity & interest on Symbian OS. As with any new platform you will no doubt see a buzz around them and throw into that mix the large brand names we're seeing and it comes as no big surprise that developers would want to pick it up and 'fool around with it'. Native Symbian development won't come naturally to those used to desktop development or high level languages. Stick with it and you will see the rewards as many developers and organisations around the world have already found out. But targetting Symbian OS doesn't just mean you have to stick to native development only. As mentioned before there are a wide range of development languanges and runtimes supported....which to me says 'developer friendly'. Linux/Standard C developers? Can use PIPS/OpenC Java developers? Can use the built in J2ME environment MS developers? Can use NET60 by Red Five Labs Palm developers? Can use StyleTaps solution etc etc... Thanks for the response Mike, I certaintly don’t deny what you are saying about recent developer interest but I do want to temper that with the facts and the ”global” picture. In my experience, outside of the US there is still a lot of developer activity & interest on Symbian OS.

As with any new platform you will no doubt see a buzz around them and throw into that mix the large brand names we’re seeing and it comes as no big surprise that developers would want to pick it up and ‘fool around with it’.

Native Symbian development won’t come naturally to those used to desktop development or high level languages. Stick with it and you will see the rewards as many developers and organisations around the world have already found out. But targetting Symbian OS doesn’t just mean you have to stick to native development only. As mentioned before there are a wide range of development languanges and runtimes supported….which to me says ‘developer friendly’.

Linux/Standard C developers? Can use PIPS/OpenC
Java developers? Can use the built in J2ME environment
MS developers? Can use NET60 by Red Five Labs
Palm developers? Can use StyleTaps solution
etc etc…

]]> By: matthew bennett http://www.thisismobility.com/blog/2008/06/30/nokia-symbian-open-source/comment-page-1/#comment-302252 matthew bennett Thu, 24 Jul 2008 00:33:27 +0000 http://www.thisismobility.com/blog/?p=566#comment-302252 Miker, You're last comment got me... I have messed around with developing Python apps on my Nokia N95 for fun. And I dislike programming! I wrote an app to divide up our electric bill, figure out the rent which fluctuates based on the electric bill, and SMSes out the two amounts to my roommates. Python is easy enough, and looking through the includes list, it seems that you can access almost everything on the device through Python. Sure there's python "hacker" versions for iPhone and others, but an official port from Nokia is golden. Too bad the documentation sucks, and is scattered over the blog, the wiki, and the forums... I disagree that Maemo would make a good choice for a phone, mostly based on the dependencies for the installer app. This is not a new issue for linux users, of course. But would a normal mobile user take the trouble to fix it? Looking at Android, they had something like 1800 entrants to the coding contest not long after the SDK came out. Those numbers would suggest that the developers are most interested in Android and the iPhone (jailbroken or not). Nokia will need a big outreach to developers to keep up, IMHO. Miker,

You’re last comment got me… I have messed around with developing Python apps on my Nokia N95 for fun. And I dislike programming! I wrote an app to divide up our electric bill, figure out the rent which fluctuates based on the electric bill, and SMSes out the two amounts to my roommates.

Python is easy enough, and looking through the includes list, it seems that you can access almost everything on the device through Python. Sure there’s python “hacker” versions for iPhone and others, but an official port from Nokia is golden. Too bad the documentation sucks, and is scattered over the blog, the wiki, and the forums…

I disagree that Maemo would make a good choice for a phone, mostly based on the dependencies for the installer app. This is not a new issue for linux users, of course. But would a normal mobile user take the trouble to fix it?

Looking at Android, they had something like 1800 entrants to the coding contest not long after the SDK came out. Those numbers would suggest that the developers are most interested in Android and the iPhone (jailbroken or not). Nokia will need a big outreach to developers to keep up, IMHO.

]]> By: miker http://www.thisismobility.com/blog/2008/06/30/nokia-symbian-open-source/comment-page-1/#comment-300379 miker Sun, 20 Jul 2008 15:41:30 +0000 http://www.thisismobility.com/blog/?p=566#comment-300379 I'm not saying that Nokia doesn't have market share, I'm saying they don't have developer mindshare and they haven't captured the attention of new entrants. How often do you hear about people "fooling around with developing for Symbian" just for fun in their free time? I've attended developer focused events in a number of different areas and I've heard that very infrequently. Compare that to the number of times you run across people fooling around with iPhone or Android SDKs (or even Maemo for that matter). I'm filtering out all the Silicon Valley events cause we're weird over here. But even of events in others areas - developers area paying way more attention to the other platforms. You can argue that all you want but it won't go away, I'm just telling you what I hear. Do with it what you want. If you wan to deny it though, you've already lost really. I’m not saying that Nokia doesn’t have market share, I’m saying they don’t have developer mindshare and they haven’t captured the attention of new entrants. How often do you hear about people “fooling around with developing for Symbian” just for fun in their free time? I’ve attended developer focused events in a number of different areas and I’ve heard that very infrequently. Compare that to the number of times you run across people fooling around with iPhone or Android SDKs (or even Maemo for that matter). I’m filtering out all the Silicon Valley events cause we’re weird over here. But even of events in others areas - developers area paying way more attention to the other platforms. You can argue that all you want but it won’t go away, I’m just telling you what I hear. Do with it what you want. If you wan to deny it though, you’ve already lost really.

]]> By: Sander van der Wal http://www.thisismobility.com/blog/2008/06/30/nokia-symbian-open-source/comment-page-1/#comment-300014 Sander van der Wal Sat, 19 Jul 2008 19:40:49 +0000 http://www.thisismobility.com/blog/?p=566#comment-300014 While I am not completely happy with Symbian either, I think the main problems are not there because of the C++ subset that's being used or the sometimes lacking tools. I don't see much semantic difference between a User::Leave() and a throw(), and descriptors are not harder to get your head around than Standard C++ strings. IMHO, of course. The main problem with Symbian is that it operates in the mobile space, which is completely different from the PC/Internet space. In the mobile space, the user of the device is of little importance, it is the operators calling the shots. Symbian Signed is there because of the operators. Making Symbian Open Source is not going to change much (apart from being able to see the C++ source in the debugger), because it doesn't change the power structure. Using Linux instead of Symbian OS doesn't matter either, again because the power structure doesn't change. While I am not completely happy with Symbian either, I think the main problems are not there because of the C++ subset that’s being used or the sometimes lacking tools. I don’t see much semantic difference between a User::Leave() and a throw(), and descriptors are not harder to get your head around than Standard C++ strings. IMHO, of course.

The main problem with Symbian is that it operates in the mobile space, which is completely different from the PC/Internet space. In the mobile space, the user of the device is of little importance, it is the operators calling the shots. Symbian Signed is there because of the operators.

Making Symbian Open Source is not going to change much (apart from being able to see the C++ source in the debugger), because it doesn’t change the power structure. Using Linux instead of Symbian OS doesn’t matter either, again because the power structure doesn’t change.

]]> By: Hetal http://www.thisismobility.com/blog/2008/06/30/nokia-symbian-open-source/comment-page-1/#comment-299774 Hetal Fri, 18 Jul 2008 23:16:17 +0000 http://www.thisismobility.com/blog/?p=566#comment-299774 "Symbian is THE MOST developer hostile system" Yet there are thousands of applications, 4 million developers and many language options supported (PIPS, Python, Java, Flash, .NET etc). "many of whom have already thrown up their hands in disgust and fled the platform." Really? Then I wonder who's been writing the great apps I've installed recently on my N95. Apps that let me use my phone as a wifi hotspot, track & log my cycling routes (which I can overlay Google Earth), use motion gestures to not only control the UI but also perform certain functions such as answering calls, launching specific apps etc "Linux brings a whole set of good tools." Ok...but where are the phones? As a developer I want to be able to target a large number of devices. Today Symbian is the only one to really offer that with 200+ million devices. The move towards open source is a great one which will open up opportunites for countless more developers and really push innovation. It's shame the spirit and vision of this move has been missed here. “Symbian is THE MOST developer hostile system”
Yet there are thousands of applications, 4 million developers and many language options supported (PIPS, Python, Java, Flash, .NET etc).

“many of whom have already thrown up their hands in disgust and fled the platform.”
Really? Then I wonder who’s been writing the great apps I’ve installed recently on my N95. Apps that let me use my phone as a wifi hotspot, track & log my cycling routes (which I can overlay Google Earth), use motion gestures to not only control the UI but also perform certain functions such as answering calls, launching specific apps etc

“Linux brings a whole set of good tools.”
Ok…but where are the phones? As a developer I want to be able to target a large number of devices. Today Symbian is the only one to really offer that with 200+ million devices.

The move towards open source is a great one which will open up opportunites for countless more developers and really push innovation. It’s shame the spirit and vision of this move has been missed here.

]]> By: tony http://www.thisismobility.com/blog/2008/06/30/nokia-symbian-open-source/comment-page-1/#comment-297492 tony Mon, 14 Jul 2008 00:11:29 +0000 http://www.thisismobility.com/blog/?p=566#comment-297492 I'm always curious why support for exceptions was considered a real negative for the Symbian OS C++ environment, especially considering so many developers eschew the use of them in order to maintain simplicity. Perhaps if you're porting some of your code that relies on exceptions it might be a problem, but afaik the latest version of RVCT would support exceptions anyhow. The only problem for Symbian as an environment is it's esoteric or perhaps better described 'alien' nature, I like to compare it to Windows APIs (which are all over the place) except that Windows has the benefit of being ubiquitous whereas Symbian is not and will never probably be so. Starting to get scripting languages as first class citizens in the environment, and making APIs as straight POSIX/C like as possible would be a step in the right direction. Oh and deprecating the abomination of descriptors would be a good idea too. I’m always curious why support for exceptions was considered a real negative for the Symbian OS C++ environment, especially considering so many developers eschew the use of them in order to maintain simplicity. Perhaps if you’re porting some of your code that relies on exceptions it might be a problem, but afaik the latest version of RVCT would support exceptions anyhow.

The only problem for Symbian as an environment is it’s esoteric or perhaps better described ‘alien’ nature, I like to compare it to Windows APIs (which are all over the place) except that Windows has the benefit of being ubiquitous whereas Symbian is not and will never probably be so.

Starting to get scripting languages as first class citizens in the environment, and making APIs as straight POSIX/C like as possible would be a step in the right direction. Oh and deprecating the abomination of descriptors would be a good idea too.

]]> By: Todd Hinskins http://www.thisismobility.com/blog/2008/06/30/nokia-symbian-open-source/comment-page-1/#comment-292259 Todd Hinskins Wed, 02 Jul 2008 11:33:51 +0000 http://www.thisismobility.com/blog/?p=566#comment-292259 I would like to pull out three quotes and add one of my own: “Symbian is THE MOST developer hostile system” "despite many people from Nokia stating publicly that maemo is far from being suited for cellular telephony" "watch for Trolltech (Nokia’s new purchase early this year)" Nokia ships currently 4 platforms.... I would like to pull out three quotes and add one of my own:

“Symbian is THE MOST developer hostile system”

“despite many people from Nokia stating publicly that maemo is far from being suited for cellular telephony”

“watch for Trolltech (Nokia’s new purchase early this year)”

Nokia ships currently 4 platforms….

]]> By: Prophet King Governance Press » links for 2008-07-02 http://www.thisismobility.com/blog/2008/06/30/nokia-symbian-open-source/comment-page-1/#comment-292125 Prophet King Governance Press » links for 2008-07-02 Wed, 02 Jul 2008 05:31:16 +0000 http://www.thisismobility.com/blog/?p=566#comment-292125 [...] Mike Rowehl: This is Mobility » Blog Archive » Nokia, Symbian, Open Source Symbian doesn’t exactly love the end user either. (tags: mobile programming) [...] [...] Mike Rowehl: This is Mobility » Blog Archive » Nokia, Symbian, Open Source Symbian doesn’t exactly love the end user either. (tags: mobile programming) [...]

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