Comments on: Mobile Payments Discussion Part 2 - FUD http://www.thisismobility.com/blog/2008/03/13/mobile-payments-discussion-part-2-fud/ Ripping mobility from the clutches of telecom Fri, 12 Mar 2010 06:10:45 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7.1 hourly 1 By: The Law of Mobility » Blog Archive » Big Bell Dogma: March 2008 http://www.thisismobility.com/blog/2008/03/13/mobile-payments-discussion-part-2-fud/comment-page-1/#comment-258718 The Law of Mobility » Blog Archive » Big Bell Dogma: March 2008 Mon, 31 Mar 2008 12:36:48 +0000 http://www.thisismobility.com/blog/2008/03/13/mobile-payments-discussion-part-2-fud/#comment-258718 [...] Mobile payments FUD [...] [...] Mobile payments FUD [...]

]]> By: Simon Cavill http://www.thisismobility.com/blog/2008/03/13/mobile-payments-discussion-part-2-fud/comment-page-1/#comment-251289 Simon Cavill Thu, 13 Mar 2008 20:04:52 +0000 http://www.thisismobility.com/blog/2008/03/13/mobile-payments-discussion-part-2-fud/#comment-251289 Mike, One of my key points was that in the "West" mobile payments are a "nice to have" in many ways. There are always other ways to pay and you have to get over the innate conservatism regarding payment methods amongst the vast majority of consumers. It took 40 years for Europe to "get" payment cards and another 10-12 years for debit cards to have wide acceptance. Another key requirement is developing an inherent trust between all parties in the proposed payment channel. In my view there simply isn't a driving need for mobile payments that is sufficient enough to change the status quo other than in certain niche areas. (Note to self - get that web page rewritten!) Question - Would PayPal have succeeded without the disruptive model of eBay to drive it? Even they with their Uber Brand can't get much traction out of mobile payments... In the developing World however, mobile payments could be a critical factor in overall economic development because there is not much else for initiating payments beyond your cash radius (about 20 miles or as far as you can walk in a day). That's where mobile payments will take off - But its critical that there is a strong cash element involved as there is a healthy distrust of technology... We do white label mobile payments largely with operators 1/ Because they want to push their own brands. 2/ They don't get risk management and payment business processes very well, and 3/ We don't have a spare £30M to push our own brand uphill like a rock!! Simon Mike,
One of my key points was that in the “West” mobile payments are a “nice to have” in many ways. There are always other ways to pay and you have to get over the innate conservatism regarding payment methods amongst the vast majority of consumers. It took 40 years for Europe to “get” payment cards and another 10-12 years for debit cards to have wide acceptance. Another key requirement is developing an inherent trust between all parties in the proposed payment channel. In my view there simply isn’t a driving need for mobile payments that is sufficient enough to change the status quo other than in certain niche areas. (Note to self - get that web page rewritten!)

Question - Would PayPal have succeeded without the disruptive model of eBay to drive it? Even they with their Uber Brand can’t get much traction out of mobile payments…

In the developing World however, mobile payments could be a critical factor in overall economic development because there is not much else for initiating payments beyond your cash radius (about 20 miles or as far as you can walk in a day). That’s where mobile payments will take off - But its critical that there is a strong cash element involved as there is a healthy distrust of technology…

We do white label mobile payments largely with operators 1/ Because they want to push their own brands. 2/ They don’t get risk management and payment business processes very well, and 3/ We don’t have a spare £30M to push our own brand uphill like a rock!!

Simon

]]> By: tz1 http://www.thisismobility.com/blog/2008/03/13/mobile-payments-discussion-part-2-fud/comment-page-1/#comment-251269 tz1 Thu, 13 Mar 2008 19:00:37 +0000 http://www.thisismobility.com/blog/2008/03/13/mobile-payments-discussion-part-2-fud/#comment-251269 What I would like is something like a Google Checkout Mobile where when I'm in a coffee shop, I can just enter a vendor code (maybe cut-paste something over wifi or bluetooth, then bookmark it) and the amount, and they get immediate notification and transfer. I say Google Checkout because I don't like the "fax your electric bill at 2am" resolution of problems at PayPal, but already have GC. There are also systems using blind signature cryptographic methods to send numbers representing coins, and it would be easily doable but require a clearinghouse server. Anything like this would require a lot of customers and vendors to adopt and trust it first, so it is unlikely to happen. What I would like is something like a Google Checkout Mobile where when I’m in a coffee shop, I can just enter a vendor code (maybe cut-paste something over wifi or bluetooth, then bookmark it) and the amount, and they get immediate notification and transfer. I say Google Checkout because I don’t like the “fax your electric bill at 2am” resolution of problems at PayPal, but already have GC.

There are also systems using blind signature cryptographic methods to send numbers representing coins, and it would be easily doable but require a clearinghouse server. Anything like this would require a lot of customers and vendors to adopt and trust it first, so it is unlikely to happen.

]]> By: miker http://www.thisismobility.com/blog/2008/03/13/mobile-payments-discussion-part-2-fud/comment-page-1/#comment-251219 miker Thu, 13 Mar 2008 16:08:25 +0000 http://www.thisismobility.com/blog/2008/03/13/mobile-payments-discussion-part-2-fud/#comment-251219 Hey Simon, thanks for the feedback, but it would be great if you read this before you just plugged what you're doing. I'll let it live though, cause your service sounds interesting. I know other areas have payment systems based on exchanging or cashing out prepaid minutes, that's why I mentioned it. What I'm looking to do is figure out a way to do a global payments system, something that will work on the mobile web, to help accelerate the growth of that intrinsically global medium in an environment where most people are still focused on carrier boundaries. This excerpt from your website sounds like something in the right direction: Mobile Payments - Our white label micro-payment and eMoney services allows customers to make instant purchase decisions using their mobile handset to buy goods and services or review previous transactions at any time, anywhere in the world. The whole part of "white label" gets me a bit uneasy though, sounds like you're trying to sell a platform to others to use? Why not run a global system anyone can hook into? These phone based networks you mention, online or offline payments? To me the real advance would seem to be more through platformless digital cash. Allowing arbitrary exchanges between arbitrary users. Not yet another platform that someone is trying to get everyone to hook into. Unless of course we're able to provide some kind of OpenID or OAuth inspired payment selection endpoint allowing any merchant to use any backend payment provider at the user's direction. The Mi-Pay stuff looks somewhat interesting. But to me it sounds a bit like you're selling the utopian vision of broad mobile payments, but really just looking to get people to integrate into a different platform. Please let me know if I'm wrong. Hey Simon, thanks for the feedback, but it would be great if you read this before you just plugged what you’re doing. I’ll let it live though, cause your service sounds interesting. I know other areas have payment systems based on exchanging or cashing out prepaid minutes, that’s why I mentioned it. What I’m looking to do is figure out a way to do a global payments system, something that will work on the mobile web, to help accelerate the growth of that intrinsically global medium in an environment where most people are still focused on carrier boundaries. This excerpt from your website sounds like something in the right direction:

Mobile Payments - Our white label micro-payment and eMoney services allows customers to make instant purchase decisions using their mobile handset to buy goods and services or review previous transactions at any time, anywhere in the world.

The whole part of “white label” gets me a bit uneasy though, sounds like you’re trying to sell a platform to others to use? Why not run a global system anyone can hook into? These phone based networks you mention, online or offline payments?

To me the real advance would seem to be more through platformless digital cash. Allowing arbitrary exchanges between arbitrary users. Not yet another platform that someone is trying to get everyone to hook into. Unless of course we’re able to provide some kind of OpenID or OAuth inspired payment selection endpoint allowing any merchant to use any backend payment provider at the user’s direction.

The Mi-Pay stuff looks somewhat interesting. But to me it sounds a bit like you’re selling the utopian vision of broad mobile payments, but really just looking to get people to integrate into a different platform. Please let me know if I’m wrong.

]]> By: Simon Cavill http://www.thisismobility.com/blog/2008/03/13/mobile-payments-discussion-part-2-fud/comment-page-1/#comment-251117 Simon Cavill Thu, 13 Mar 2008 11:05:03 +0000 http://www.thisismobility.com/blog/2008/03/13/mobile-payments-discussion-part-2-fud/#comment-251117 Mike, The rest of the world is way ahead of the US on mobile payments as it is increasingly on many aspects of mobile "stuff" generally. Across the developing world people have been settling small debts through the exchange of top-up voucher numbers sent via SMS between them. MTN in South Africa already have a full banking service which runs totally on the phone and the M-Pesa service in Kenya (soon Afghanistan) is incredibly popular. We at Mi-Pay (plug!) are also building full domestic and international money and airtime transfer services for operator groups in four continents using the existing pre-pay top up street sellers and vendors as financial service providers recycling their own cash balances from pre-pay to provide a cash-out service for remittances, government pension payments, micro-finance etc, etc. In fact, one of the major evolutions in mobile for the next five years or so will be the deployment of financial services through phone-based agent networks throughout the developing world... You guys should get out more, ;-) its a big World out there and increasingly the US is not where it's at any more for mobile - "Necessity is the Mother of Invention" as someone once said. All the best, Simon Simon Mike,
The rest of the world is way ahead of the US on mobile payments as it is increasingly on many aspects of mobile “stuff” generally. Across the developing world people have been settling small debts through the exchange of top-up voucher numbers sent via SMS between them. MTN in South Africa already have a full banking service which runs totally on the phone and the M-Pesa service in Kenya (soon Afghanistan) is incredibly popular.

We at Mi-Pay (plug!) are also building full domestic and international money and airtime transfer services for operator groups in four continents using the existing pre-pay top up street sellers and vendors as financial service providers recycling their own cash balances from pre-pay to provide a cash-out service for remittances, government pension payments, micro-finance etc, etc. In fact, one of the major evolutions in mobile for the next five years or so will be the deployment of financial services through phone-based agent networks throughout the developing world…

You guys should get out more, ;-)

its a big World out there and increasingly the US is not where it’s at any more for mobile - “Necessity is the Mother of Invention” as someone once said.

All the best,

Simon

Simon

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